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Nueva Filosofía de Combate

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Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por Maese Mateo el Sáb Mayo 11, 2013 8:27 am

Si bien esto podría considerarse spoilers (y ya armé un tema para eso), me parece que este es un asunto que en particular merece su propio tema aparte (si hay algo que hemos sufrido es el sistema de combate de Exalted).

Holden escribió:It's that time. For those of you joining us from Kickstarter-land or other forums, welcome Very Happy

Just a little preliminary before we get started though—I know everyone really wants to see this but for the sake of my sanity as I reply to the thread please try to keep the following in mind:

• The point of this thread is to explain the play dynamic of the EX3 combat engine. I'm not showing off the mechanics of the EX3 combat engine in this thread. The combat rules are 7,000 words long, and I put them all there so the rules would be clear and cover everything. I don't want to show off just part of the rules and leave people walking away thinking we missed stuff! I also am not going to post the entire combat rules section before the book is out because I want you to actually buy the book to play the game :p

(For the sake of comparison, the EX2 combat rules were about 17,000 words long; this is a much leaner system.)

• This isn't the EX2 combat engine plus slight clean-up. The old paradigm does not apply, EX3 has not been built around it. It's not the nWoD engine either. It is a new thing that should be easy to grasp and use for long-time White Wolf fans (and also for newcomers), but also visibly different from anything they've used before in a WW game. Anyone citing the EX2 combat engine as a reason this or that won't work gets banished to the land of wind and ghosts!

• This thread is going to have lots of people flocking to it to read this post from the Kickstarter and other messageboards, so let's try not to get too much blood on the floor in front of our guests Smile

Okay, that said--

The Philosophy of EX3 combat.

Exalted 1 and Exalted 2 both used what I think of an 'action model' combat engines-- that is to say, when you rolled your dice pool, that represented a discrete action. This dice roll is an attack, for example, and it tells me how good the attack is.

This is a good model in that it feels very textured and involved-- "my roll represents my attack, and because I'm a ferociously skilled swordsman, I get to roll a lot of dice." That's visceral, and good.

The problem of the system was that what Exalted wanted to emulate, when two of its larger-than-life heroes battled, was the martial clashes of cinema (whether this meant Errol Flynn, Chinese wuxia, or Jedi lightsaber battles was largely up to the tastes of the group playing). And Exalted did a fairly faithful job of recreating this! Unfortunately, an action-by-action recitation of such a battle usually looks like this: *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *whiff* *dead*

That's faithful to the source material, but we felt that it had problems as a gameplay model-- as a player, it was frustrating. It felt like you were getting nowhere, until very suddenly you won or lost. But in the epics, and in cinema (again, this is true whether you're talking Shaw Brothers kung fu, Lu Bu vs the Brotherhood of the Peach Orchard, or Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader), most of the storytelling of the fight is contained in that "dead zone" where every swing is getting blocked or dodged or only banging the enemy around and otherwise generally not accomplishing its main goal of killing or defeating the other guy. It's not just whiff-whiff-whiff-- we can look at that fight and see how the momentum of the battle is running, we can tell who's winning and losing, and we can tell when someone has just pulled a marvelous reversal and is mounting a comeback. When Luke and Vader fight in Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader only strikes a single blow that really injures Luke-- the last one that cuts off his hand-- but we can see that Vader is clearly dominating the fight before that. Luke makes a desperate strike near the end, but only manages to graze Vader's arm and goad him on finish things by battering Luke to the end of the bridge and ending the fight with a decisive blow. That's good storytelling, that's an exciting fight scene-- much more than just the sum of "whiff whiff whiff whiff over."

That's what EX3 aims to capture, by turning the 'dead zone' into something compelling.

In Exalted Third Edition, the majority of attacks heroes launch at one another don't damage the opponent's health track*. Instead, these attacks are used to build momentum, gain the upper hand, and place the character in an advantageous position relative to his opponent(s!). They are also calculated to stymie the enemy's attempts to do the same, to disrupt his tempo, and to confound his efforts to harm you. If an attack of this sort succeeds, then it might force the opponent back, batter down his defenses, push him into disadvantageous position, or even land a blow that rattles him but inflicts no telling injury.

Once you feel you've garnered sufficient advantage, your character can attempt to launch an attack which can damage the enemy's Health Track-- and if you've fought well enough, picked your moment well, and the dice are with you, you might even slay your opponent in a single well-aimed blow, striking off his head or running him through! However, attempting to strike such a blow with undue haste can be quite risky-- it might even create an opportunity for the opponent to turn the tables completely, and seize control of the fight!

This is the battle dynamics philosophy of EX3, and is the result its combat engine has been designed to realize.

*Note: This is a mechanical abstraction intended to represent the ebb and flow of cinematic combat, not an actual thing that exists in the setting. When a Solar and an Abyssal are swinging daiklaves at one another, they very much are trying to cut and kill their enemy with each blow-- even if we, the players, know that all the attacks this round are able to do is to win them advantage.

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Re: Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por Maese Mateo el Sáb Mayo 11, 2013 9:41 am

Holden escribió:
The Sea Without Lease escribió:This sounds like a well thought out and fantastic way to model a fight!

But, how good is it at modeling a fight between two opponents who's power imbalance is such that it SHOULD be a complete slaughter?

To me, being able to feel powerful, after awhile, is important (obviously) and I feel the need to ask how well it can model a massive power disparity.

It sounds like a great way to model that fight between Luke and Vader, but if say, it were Vader and...a civilian who didn't know how to fight with a light saber (but had one for the sake of this example), would Vader have to spend some time gaining the advantage over the civilian, or would he, in this system, be able to end the fight in one maneuver (maybe two if the civilian swings wildly in the hope that he won't die)?

For a less one-sided example, what if it were Vader verses...a US marine (again, in the context of a light saber fight). In this example, Vader and the Marine are both trained fighters, BUT, Vader knows how to fight with a sword, and the Marine only has generally fighting tactics to draw upon. A less one sided fight, but a fight that Vader SHOULD be able to end almost immediately.

If a powerful opponent is fighting someone they should just curb stomp, will they have to go through the process of building up an 'advantage' in combat before finishing someone off, even though the opponent has no chance of winning, or can the system accommodate for a scenario where 'I'm just so much more skilled and experienced than this fighter, even though they're not BAD, I can just walk up to them and beat/kill them'?

I know that this probably goes against, in at least SOME way, your new design philosophy and overall intent for the system, but as a gamer its important to me to be able to advance to the point where previous challenges are now just so much easier as to take a fraction of the time, effort, and risk that was involved before, and to me, this should include combat.

So...can it? Cause if it can, awesome, I'll have to bum some money off the family to kick start it sooner than next week.

This is a good question, and one of the few times I'll dip into actual mechanics to answer you. The system has a concept called 'trivial opponents,' which the Storyteller is allowed to invoke at his discretion. A trivial opponent isn't the same thing as an extra in previous editions-- it could be a named character!-- but it's an enemy that the Storyteller judges to present no real threat to you due to massive power imbalance. Like, let's say, Raksi, Queen of Fangs, vs someone's attack dog. One of these is a mid-sized, vicious dog, and one is a 2,000 year old Lunar sorceress wearing the form of a giant clawed and fanged ape. This is not an actual contest and it surely isn't worth tying up the gaming group for 15 minutes to resolve. Because the dog is a trivial opponent, Raksi is allowed to apply all attacks directly to its health track, bypassing the whole cinematic pacing thing-- she's probably going to pick it up and sling it into a wall and smash all its bones in one attack.

(PCs are never trivial opponents for anything no matter how outmatched they may be, of course)

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Re: Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por Maese Mateo el Sáb Mayo 11, 2013 9:54 am

Holden escribió:I'll just say that being a sneaky-stabby sort presents its own set of advantages and disadvantages, as tactics go, and can be quite rewarding-- but even when it's working well for you, it's not the ungodly one-sided destroyer of worlds that combat-stealth was in 2e.
Holden escribió:To others: I'm not gonna be answering many system-specific posts. To whoever asked about range: Range is abstracted rather than measured, and run-and-hide tactics without exposing yourself to danger are pretty difficult to manage. The kind of mobility superiority you saw in 2e where you could have one guy who was like the Flash and his opponent had no prayer of doing anything to him at all is also not really a thing in EX3 (though you can certainly do mobility-centric characters, and that's a big advantage if you're fighting someone totally incompetent at it).
John Mørke escribió:I can confirm, having drafted Heavenly Guardian Defense, Adamant Skin Technique, and Seven Shadow Evasion, that each Charm has a distinct function from the other, and do indeed follow the idea of evading damage at the expense of your momentum in the battle.
John Mørke escribió:
Arteliex escribió:HHHNNNNNGGG!!!! Awesome.

To note, however... Have you ever played Dissidia: Final Fantasy for PsP? It was also designed to showcase those epic cinematic battles... As you fight, you attack with "O", building up Bravery... after you build up enough, you can hit "Square" to attack with an HP Attack, dealing damage proportional to the build up Bravery score, potentially defeating the opponent in a final single strike.

[cool] I completely and totally and asdofhapowsfi approve.

Dissidia had a profound influence on our system ideas.
John Mørke escribió:
nonamemaddoxx escribió:This may not be part of combat design per se, but:

How did you guys deal with the 'enter physical combat to escape social combat' issue? I don't know if this was a problem for everyone, but at least in my experience the incentive to do that was always there.

By not having social combat.

Less cheeky answer: our social influence system carries over to combat.

Even more helpful answer: if you solve every problem by fighting, you're going to die.
Holden escribió:
nonamemaddoxx escribió:This may not be part of combat design per se, but:

How did you guys deal with the 'enter physical combat to escape social combat' issue? I don't know if this was a problem for everyone, but at least in my experience the incentive to do that was always there.

You can continue to talk while you sword people. Also talking isn't paradigmatically structured as combat.
Holden escribió:Clarifying note: A mortal soldier can kill your Exalt if you fight like a moron. The 'trivial opponents' rule is there to be invoked pretty rarely-- it's for things like random innocent bystanders, or unskilled mortal schlubs once you hit Essence 5. It would never, ever apply to an Exalt, and I wouldn't personally ever apply it to something like the Brides of Ahlat.
John Mørke escribió:There are a lot of ways to end combat without someone hitting incapacitated, none of them allowing a person to escape fights with 100% success. Some are as simple as "this character will attempt to flee or surrender upon taking X damage" and rules to govern characters opting out of battle in various ways, after a fight has started.

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Re: Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por Gonzo el Mar Mayo 14, 2013 3:40 pm

Yo creo que este sí será el sistema definitivo. Se puede ver que hubo un esfuerzo para conceptualizarlo y no sólo un transporte insípido de edición a edición.
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Re: Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por Maese Mateo el Mar Mayo 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Gonzo escribió:Yo creo que este sí será el sistema definitivo. Se puede ver que hubo un esfuerzo para conceptualizarlo y no sólo un transporte insípido de edición a edición.
Estoy completamente de acuerdo. Espero no solo sea un buen sistema para los veteranos de 1ra y 2da Edición, sino que sirva para atraer más gente al juego, especialmente a aquellos que salieron espantados por el sistema de las ediciones anteriores (conozco un par de casos).

También espero el cambio estético por algo más tradicional y menos caricaturesco/anime ayude en este sentido.

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Re: Nueva Filosofía de Combate

Mensaje por grawshak el Jue Mayo 23, 2013 10:40 am

Si la verdad es que según lo que comenta en esos mensajes.
Parece que si han tomado en serio el proyecto, para directamente mejorarlo y no una simple revisión de el mismo sistema.

Pero lo de el que esté caricaturizado al estilo anime, no lo veo una contra para no comprarlo.
Es decir, no te puede interesar porque no te guste el sistema, o porque no te guste el tipo de personajes etc...

Pero que digas que es una mierda, solo por que este caricaturizado al estilo anime me parece una solemne chorrada.

Cuando además depende que estilo de dibujo anime hablemos. Porque obviamente no tienen la mismas calidad, ni estilo las Sailor Moon, que Ghost in The Shell (que esa es otra cosa que hay que entender, para criticar la caricaturación. creo yo )

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